College Media Network - Search the largest news resource for college students by college students

Law professors debate Second Amendment rights in Forum Hall

By Aubree Casper

Print this article

Published: Thursday, September 17, 2009

Updated: Thursday, September 17, 2009

Professor Raymond T. Diamond

Lisle Alderton

Professor William Merkel

Lisle Alderton

(Above) Professor Raymond T. Diamond of Louisiana State University Law Center, and Professor William Merkel (Below) of Washburn University School of Law took the stage in Forum Hall for the lecture “Guns on Campus? The New Understanding of the Right to Bear Arms” Wednesday evening.

Question of the day

Do you think concealed carry should be allowed on campus?

View results

A diverse crowd of more than 150 people gathered in Forum Hall Wednesday evening to hear the opinions of two law professors as they debated the ever-present topic of gun control in relation to the language of the U.S. Constitution.

The audience sat intently as the debate-style information session titled “Guns on Campus? The New Understanding of the Right to Bear Arms” brought two perspectives on the future of the courts’ interpretation of the Second Amendment through the research and experience of Raymond T. Diamond, law professor at Louisiana State University, and William Merkel, law professor at Washburn University.

The debate, moderated by Michael Kaye, law professor at Washburn University, featured a 14-minute segment each for Diamond and Merkel, along with periods for cross-examination of their arguments.

Diamond first commented on the landmark District of Columbia v. Heller case that was decided by the Supreme Court in 2008, which essentially protected the long-standing individual’s right to bear arms as stated in the Second Amendment of the Constitution, agreeing that the language of the amendment allows citizens to keep a firearm for protection of their home.

Diamond used a long history of American gun ownership to support his argument. He said in that 18th century England, and even in the new colonies, “All able-bodied men were to serve in the militia [or armed citizenry] ... the right to bear arms is a fundamental right.”

Using historical precedent, Diamond continued stating that the Second Amendment provides Americans with protection should they keep and need to use a firearm in self-defense of their home, and that during early American history, it was considered a duty to be ready and able to protect not only one’s home, but one’s community.

Merkel used his time to present a different interpretation of the Second Amendment. Using other parts of the Constitution, such as the Ninth and 14th Amendments, he argued that the Second Amendment only refers to bearing arms with the sole intent of participating in an organized militia, which he referred to as a “purpose clause.” Merkel also pointed out the correlation between lower numbers of violent acts and stricter gun restrictions.

“The text of the Second Amendment has nothing to do with private self-defense,” Merkel said. “Four hundred texts discuss what the right to bear arms means, and about 95 percent of those refer to use in a militia.”

Merkel went on to call the nation’s current idea of the right to bear arms a “historical fantasy,” meaning most individuals’ idea of the Second Amendment is a more frivolous interpretation of the text.

Another subject was the concern of whether and what kinds of limitations might be enacted to keep those with criminal records from being able to own a weapon.

Both professors agreed that, ultimately, it is up to each state to interpret gun control laws. Each professor also agreed, though in different ways, that changes throughout the nation’s history have created changes in the way the Second Amendment has been interpreted.

After each professor had made his point, a panel of Kansas Court of Appeals justices took turns asking questions of each side, followed by the reading of audience questions by Kaye.

Diamond said that, while he supports the right to bear arms and sees the issue making another appearance in the U.S. Supreme Court in the next few years, he doesn’t see concealed carry on college campuses any time soon.

Olivia Alexander, sophomore and Johnson County Community College and Kansas’s representative for the national organization Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, attended the debate. Alexander, though relatively new to the concealed carry on campus movement, joined the organization last spring after taking a concealed carry class. She said her interest in gun control laws was first sparked after her God-brother took her to shoot guns last year.

“This freedom [the right to bear arms] won’t be around if we don’t exercise it,” said Alexander.

She said her approach to concealed carry on campus is that she hopes for the best, but is prepared for the worst.

Most in attendance, like John Clark, junior in open option and K-State’s Students for Concealed Carry on Campus leader, agreed on two things: first, the event remained unexpectedly calm, though the turn-out was better than expected; and second, for the time being, students and citizens will have to find alternative ways to defend school campuses.

Diamond recommends throwing books.

Comments

28 comments
Marc
Sat Sep 19 2009 11:46
The flaw with the militia interpretation is this: If the right to firearms is limited to the militia, then the right to free speech is limited to the press.
Doug
Sat Sep 19 2009 05:29
Professor Merkel badly needs to review the writings of the Founding Fathers.
It is very clear, and a vast majority of legal scholars agree, that the Bill of Rights ennumerates individual rights, not those of the government.
Carl from Chicago
Fri Sep 18 2009 18:33
Freedom4all, I fail to see how your argument is relevant to this situation (or to anything, for that matter).

Regardless of whether those men you mention were or weren't licensees, neither their licenses or any other aspect of the law authorized them to commit murder. While the gun rights infringers wave arms and claim that licensing provisions are "arming criminals", that is simply not true. Criminals arm themselves. Permit or not, what those men did was horrendous and quite unlawful. Whether there was a plastic card in their wallet, or not, makes no difference in those situations.

All we know is that people have a right to bear arms for lawful purposes. We know the licensing process is supported by most (even gun rights supporters). We know that licensees are far less likely than non-licensees to commit crimes. Rare and isolated incidents are none-the-less horrible and must be prevented, but in public policy we value individual rights, and we value probabilities, patterns and trends. Rare, isolated incident should not even come up in policy discussions.

Freedom4All
Fri Sep 18 2009 16:07
The four 2009 mass shooters that I mentioned were all concealed carry permit holders, and here are the news accounts that confirm that fact:

“LA Fitness Shooter Had Lethal Plan,” Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, August 6, 2009
“Shooter Prepared at Home, Leaves Hit List,” The Enterprise-Ledger, March 11, 2009
“Poplawski Bought Guns Through Shop in Wilkinsburg,” Pittsburgh-Post Gazette, April 7, 2009
"Slaying Suspect Denied Gun Permit 3 Times Before Getting 2007 OK," Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, February 19, 2009

There have probably been more than that, too, including killers like George Zinkhan. Those four are just the ones that have been confirmed at this point. The NRA has enacted secrecy laws in most states that make the identities of permit holders difficult or impossible for the public to access.

Every one of them had obvious red flags in his background that should have prevented these guys from buying a gun, much less carrying one in public. The screening process for permit holders in most states is an absolute joke.

Here's another recent article about permit holders who threatened Knoxsville officials that publicly supported a ban on concealed handguns in public parks:

“Guns in Parks Ban Evokes Threats,” Knoxville News Sentinel, September 17, 2009

And for the record, you're wrong, New York has a May-Issue policy on concealed carry (although law enforcement in upstate New York might not always exercise their discretion).

Oliver H. Perry
Fri Sep 18 2009 15:40
review the various state constitutions written at the same time and you will put an end to this "purpose clause" BS. Mine simply says, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." (period) That's the whole thing.
Jarhead1961
Fri Sep 18 2009 13:52
Jarhead1982 Your assumption is already flawed. Limiting the data to FBI and Police statistics data will skew the results! One doesn't have to discharge a firearm to use it in self defense! You should look up Dr. Lott who has done extensive research on this subject.
Earl
Fri Sep 18 2009 13:12
Freedom4all,

Your not telling the truth! None of them were permit holders!

O' by the way New York is a shall issue state. It's an act of god to get a concealed weapons permit.

Your not being truthful.

Earl

Freedom4All
Fri Sep 18 2009 12:28
There have already been four confirmed mass shootings this year by concealed carry permit holders: Michael McClendon in Alabama (11 dead), Frank Garcia in upstate New York, Richard Poplawski in Pittsburgh (killed 3 cops) and George Sodini in Pittsburgh (health club shooter who killed 3 women). In most states, the screening process for these permits is an absolute joke, as you can see by the aggressive comments on the this page.
rege
Fri Sep 18 2009 11:41
The debate is not about guns, but rather who has the power to rule. Anyone who does not trust you to carry a gun is themselves not worthy of trust. Those who would deny you the basic right of self-defense should be removed from office as they are not worthily to rule.
Rege
Fri Sep 18 2009 11:39
The debate is not about guns, but rather who has the power to rule. Anyone who does not trust you to carry a gun is themselves not worthy of trust. Those who would deny you the basic right of self-defense should be removed from office as they are not worthily to rule.
Bill Gray
Fri Sep 18 2009 08:22
Try applying the anti-gun logic to a provision in the Constitution. Article 1, Section 8, paragraph 8 of the Const. extablishes the the Patent Bureau. Patents and copyrights are to be granted if the inventions and writings "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts...". Does that mean that bureaucrats must decide if the Slinky and directions to the Pet Rock are patentable or worthy of a copyright based on more than originality? Is the subordinate clause a partial list of possible factors or is it an absolutely complete list of the only possible factors? How are computers, the internet and e-mail protected under the First Amendment if they were not forseen by the Founding Fathers?
Jarhead1982
Fri Sep 18 2009 07:55
Since all these enlightened people are supposed to be intelligent, lets challenge them to mathematical probability contest and see what results come up with the real probability of risk from people carrying concealed, Then compare that risk against the risk of an individual being harmed by their personal physician. We would then expect that you use these comparisons as support for your thesis for or against concealed carry.

The ground rule for the data used is simple, the only data you are allowed to use will come from police data from individual municiplaties (in a sufficient sample size for any data used) considering and factoring in the variables of the slums to upper class neighborhoods. Data from the FBI UCR and USDOJ Surveys and reports. Then data from the CDC allowing for and modifying for their failure to segregate adults (18 and over) from their 15-24 year olds as "children" data and acredited medical oversight associations like the AMA. Academic studies not funded by either the anti or pro gun organizations may be used, provided you validate that all relevant variables were used in the study from both side of the arguement, as well as the data. This way there is no chance of biased slanting or cherry picking of data by either side of the anti/pro gun issue.

Lets see how intelligent our college students are today once they calculate those numbers, then try to argue that concealed carry presents such a mathematical risk that everyone really should be concerned for their safety, any takers?

Or are we to assume irrational fears and emotions as projected by the anti gun control freaks are the emminitely logical and and scientificly valid reasons for removing a persons God Given right to self defense? Of course then you would have to scientificly prove everyone is physicaly and equally cpapble of stopping an assault via training and including physical size, and age. Again any takers?

Carl from Chicago
Fri Sep 18 2009 07:04
You want to know where this will end up?

Look, the second amendment will be incorporated against the states. The very convincing legal angle is that any colleges and universities that accept or operate on public funds will be forbidden from wholly prohibiting armed defense on their campuses. It's just the way it's going to be.

This will interact with the "sensitive places" language in Heller. Sensitive places will in the future more clearly be defined ... and will include only those places with limited access points and weapons/metal screening facilities (such as secured areas of airports, airplanes, federal buildings, courtrooms, and the like). If America wants to move toward a college and university campus scene where buildings are secured, limited, and set with metal detectors ... we can have that conversation. I work on a college campus, and I for one don't want all that kind of security. I doubt most will.

But the campus on which I work now has most of its buildings posted with little signs on the doors "Weapons prohibited on these premises." I continually think to myself ... "it is ludicrous to think that little plastic sign is going to keep someone with bad intentions from bringing a weapon into that building." It is roundly ridiculous to think so ... and anyone who gives it any thought at all will agree.

John Woods logic makes perfect sense to him ... that is ... if you can demonstrate an area to be at least relatively safe (like National Parks?), then upon that you can base your justification for the prohibition of bearing arms. Sorry buddy ... individual rights are not weighed out in that fashion.

Citizen
Fri Sep 18 2009 06:58
Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison - The Federalist Papers & author of the 2nd amendment"As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks." -- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephewMilitias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms. [...] To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them. -- Senator Richard Henry Lee, 1788, on "militia" in the 2nd Amendment False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson's Commonplace book Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence? Where is the difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands? -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour? Thomas Jefferson(Those) who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right (are) courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like. -- Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law School The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner. -- Report of the Subcommittee On The Constitution of the Committee On The Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, second session (February, 1982), SuDoc# Y4.J 89/2: Ar 5/5 In recent years it has been suggested that the Second Amendment protects the "collective" right of states to maintain militias, while it does not protect the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms. If anyone entertained this notion in the period during which the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were debated and ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis. -- Stephen P. Halbrook, "That Every Man Be Armed", 1984 a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen... -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181) No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less when there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm without restriction. Half a century of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a far greater use of this weapon in crime than ever before. -- Colin Greenwood, in the study "Firearms Control", 1972 Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen. -- "M.T. Cicero", in a newspaper letter of 1788 touching the "militia" referred to in the Second Amendment to the Constitution. Your opinions hold no sway, Your conclusions no wisdom, and your words no power when you disagree with the wording or intention of any of the rights owned and kept by the free citizens of this country. If any governing body takes it upon themselves to attempt removing any of these rights they mark themselves by their very words and actions as Tyrants by the definitions expressed by the authors and founders of this great Country. Dont you get it are you so...
Mike
Fri Sep 18 2009 01:42
I would've like to see an interview with students or officials who opposed CCW on campuses and not such an obviously bias image (the Gun Free Zone crap) accompanying the article.

And Justice Scalia was right, the Second Amendment doesn't protect concealed weapons. Got a gun to hunt or protect your home? Fine with me, but keep it there.

MC
Thu Sep 17 2009 23:37
There was a hearty round of applause for Prof. Diamond after his opening remarks, which were heavily slanted in favor of the right to bear arms. But, what the gun crowd didn't expect was his complete lack of support for universities allowing CC on campus. Keep in mind his reasons for this view: college students can't be trusted with guns.

The debate was clearly on the legal aspects of the 2nd Amendment, a much different issue than concealed carry on campuses. The article in the Collegian announcing the debate did not make this clear.

Earl
Thu Sep 17 2009 23:00
John,

You don’t get it. It’s about individual right of self defense. You say one murded! You conveniently leave out hundreds of assaults.

Let’s say a young woman is walking out of her night class that’s over at 10pm. The campus is dark. As she leaves two rapists jump out of the bushes and assault this innocent person.

In your world you say call the police. In your world you tell the young lady to tell the nice rapist to wait a second while she gets out her phone and calls the police.

In my world the young woman brandishes a firearm without firing a shot and gets to a safe place to calls the police.

John I want you to remember one thing when seconds matter police are only minutes away.

Earl

John Woods
Thu Sep 17 2009 22:09
"second, for the time being, students and citizens will have to find alternative ways to defend school campuses."

Wow, what a biased frame. As if armies are invading college campuses at this very moment. What do we need to defend against, exactly? The one murder every two decades? It seems like the best way to do that is with better policing and prevention, not by arming students.

Kris
Thu Sep 17 2009 21:55
With a title of "Guns on Campus?", why wasn't the issue of guns on campus the theme for the debate?
Carl from Chicago
Thu Sep 17 2009 21:10
So ... I would understand that Merkel's arguments centered around those already invalidated by the Heller court?

Beyond strictly academic purposes (and historical ones at that), what is the purpose of kicking that dead horse?

The most parsimonious explanation is the one that the Supreme Court majority articulated. That the 2A consists of a prefatory clause and an operative clause. The prefatory clause announces a purpose (the militia), and repeats that this militia is indeed necessary to our security. The operative clause is what outlines that the right (to bear arms) simply shall not be infringed or diminished. For whatever lawful purpose (including but not limited to a citizen's militia), Americans have an individual right to own and carry arms. And this pre-existing right shall not be infringed, diminished, frustrated, complicated, etc.

It really is that simple.







log out